Is your latest toy design capable of teaching kids valuable life skills? Creating a toy that's both a blast to play with and packs a punch in the personal growth department isn't child's play. So, how do you shake things up and make a toy that's not just another shiny object in the toy box but a true game-changer in a kid's development? Get ready to level up your toy-creating game with some insider knowledge from this must-listen episode.
Welcome Rachele Harmuth, Head of ThinkFun who is back on the podcast to highlight her latest work in the toy industry. Rachele's got the lowdown on something called "MESH" - think emotional veggies for your kid's growing mind - and she's here to spill the beans on why it's cool (and crucial) to weave problem-solving and emotional smarts into playtime. She's not just talking the talk; she'll guide you through what it really means to create a toy that earns the MESH stamp of approval.
If you're ready to toss the old playbook and craft toys that'll stand out in a heart-and-brain-healthy way, plug into this episode and learn all you can about the new MESH Accreditation program. Oh, and once you're all fired up, don't forget to bounce over to thetoycoach.com for links from today's episode.
📝 Episode Cliff Notes:
Mentioned In This Episode:
Visit thetoycoach.com/164 for the links mentioned in today's episode.
Popular Masterclass! How To Make & Sell Your Toy Ideas
Your Low-Stress, Start-To-Finish Playful Product Launch In 5 Steps
>> https://learn.thetoycoach.com/masterclass <<
Is your latest toy design capable of teaching kids valuable life skills? Creating a toy that's both a blast to play with and packs a punch in the personal growth department isn't child's play. So, how do you shake things up and make a toy that's not just another shiny object in the toy box but a true game-changer in a kid's development? Get ready to level up your toy-creating game with some insider knowledge from this must-listen episode.
Welcome Rachele Harmuth, Head of ThinkFun who is back on the podcast to highlight her latest work in the toy industry. Rachele's got the lowdown on something called "MESH" - think emotional veggies for your kid's growing mind - and she's here to spill the beans on why it's cool (and crucial) to weave problem-solving and emotional smarts into playtime. She's not just talking the talk; she'll guide you through what it really means to create a toy that earns the MESH stamp of approval.
If you're ready to toss the old playbook and craft toys that'll stand out in a heart-and-brain-healthy way, plug into this episode and learn all you can about the new MESH Accreditation program. Oh, and once you're all fired up, don't forget to bounce over to thetoycoach.com for links from today's episode.
📝 Episode Cliff Notes:
Mentioned In This Episode:
Visit thetoycoach.com/164 for the links mentioned in today's episode.
Popular Masterclass! How To Make & Sell Your Toy Ideas
Your Low-Stress, Start-To-Finish Playful Product Launch In 5 Steps
>> https://learn.thetoycoach.com/masterclass <<
You are listening to making it in the toy industry episode number 214. Going into this, when we were hearing about kids struggling with mental health, we really had two major assumptions about what it was. We were wrong on every single one of these. And this is where it got really interesting. We assumed it was about the pandemic, right? Dr. Gilboa helped us understand, is this was happening actually long before the pandemic. So it wasn't that this was new. The challenges and the increase in mental distress in children was happening long before. But what the pandemic did is it pour gasoline all over it and let it on fire. And the beautiful thing about that is people started talking about it. hey there, toy people, Azhelle Wade here, and welcome back to another episode of the Toy Coach Podcast, making it in the toy industry. This is a weekly podcast brought to you by thetoycoach. com. Our guest today is Rachel Harmuth. She is the head at ThinkFun, a division of Ravensburger. And she, throughout her 30 years in the toy and game industry, Rachel has been involved in design, marketing, brand management, sales, and strategic planning with brands such as K'nex, Klutz, Scholastic, Batbrain Toys, and of course, ThinkFun. Rachel's known in the industry for her enthusiasm and her passion for great products that make an impact on kids lives. And today she is joining me on the podcast. To do another episode about MeSH. Rachel, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. It's so exciting to be back. Today's conversation is for people that were interested in what MeSH was when you introduced it on the podcast. What, January of 2023? Was that? Yeah, and it's funny to come back because this is where it all really started to bring it out into the industry. So really excited to be following up on, on where we're at and what's been happening over the last, gosh, year and two months. I had no idea that this podcast was going to be such a big launch platform. It really was. It really was. There's so many people I've met who are like I was listening to this podcast and oh my God. And it's so cool because I think that it's, but it shows the nature of our industry. It shows the excitement around ideas. It shows the amount of people who are out there who want to be learning and on top of what's happening. And you're really bringing that. Bringing that in. And so I think it's just, it's a beautiful marriage there. I'd like to start with M. E. S. H. The acronym stands for mental, emotional, social health, right? But what is M. E. S. H.? So M. E. S. H. is, again, it's an acronym that stands for mental, emotional, social health and how we're using it is we're talking a lot about building M. E. S. H. skills. We identified with the help of a resilience expert, Dr. Gilboa, eight skills that the research shows. Helps to build kids resilience with their mental, emotional, social health. These eight mesh skills, and they are problem solving, perseverance, adaptation, conflict resolution, self regulation, self advocacy, cognitive skills, and communication strategies. What inspired you to dive into making a movement like this? This really started because we were trying to understand our product line, our brand and how it was relevant. We were going through COVID, and so it felt like everything was changing and we wanted to understand how our product Was impacting families, how it was important, how it was relevant. And through that, we just started talking and talking to retailers. We were talking to customers. We were talking to parents, grandparents, caregivers. And it was fascinating because all the conversations kept coming back to mental health. And children's mental health. And it was such a shift from, five years before when we were talking about academic achievement and we were talking about STEM and education. It was amazing, the radical shift that we were seeing. And so it made us realize wow, we really need to step back and understand what's happening in the world today, what's happening with kids, what's happening with families, because it was so substantially different from what we had really been talking about. I've been in the industry for 30 years and we've talked about skill building and fine motor skills and gross motor skills and, academic skills and stuff, but I never really sat down and said, okay, what does it look like to develop products that address the need for children's mental health? And we've been hearing a lot about it with SEL and what was happening in the school systems and understanding that kids need to be able to identify feelings and talk about these pieces. But we hadn't really dug in to look at What does that look like? What does that mean? So we just started down the path. It was very open ended. It was very much let's just understand, and then we'll figure out if there's something that we do with it from there. And then we got deeper and deeper into the research and honestly freaked out because it was like, it was scary. Going into this, when we were hearing about kids struggling with mental health, we really had two major assumptions about what it was. And we had one major assumption about how the toy industry affected it. And a little jump ahead here. We were wrong on every single one of these. And this is where it got really interesting. So we started digging into the research and we realized it was way beyond our expertise and understanding. And so we needed help. So we went out and we we brought in A researcher and family physician, his name is Dr. Gilboa, who's been studying resiliency and mental health for the last about 15 years. And we, I said, help us understand this. But again, we have these assumptions. We assumed it was about the pandemic, right? Dr. Gilboa helped us understand, is this was happening actually long before the pandemic. So it wasn't that this was new. The challenges and the increase in mental distress in children was happening long before. But what the pandemic did is it pour gasoline all over it and let it on fire. And the beautiful thing about that is people started talking about it. So that was the first big assumption. The second one is that it was about teenagers. We figured it was, it's got about social media. I think we all see some of the negative impacts of social media as well as some of the positive impacts. And we're like, okay this really has got to be about kind of teenagers. But the research was showing, down to age three, down to age five, we were looking at research that was saying like a 25 percent increase in ER visits that are mental health related between ages five and 10, we were looking at things that the, the National Academy of Physicians had put out that we needed to do screenings. anxiety screenings starting at age eight, right? It was much, much younger than what we had expected to find. So that was a huge moment. And then in truth, yeah. And we also, as we were talking to people in the industry, we were talking to stores and we were saying, okay, so we're hearing, this is what's happening. And they're saying, yes, people are coming and talking about it. And we're saying, what do you do when someone comes in? And they're like we have some products that We think really help and they would walk us over to an end cap and it would be, fidget spinners and squishy plush and these really great comfort items. And so we also said to Dr. Gilboa, isn't Don't we have the product that helps with this? Isn't this what this is? And she sat us down and said, these products are amazing, but they don't, no, they're not the solution, What they do is they help that child with comfort and recovery. They get them back to their baseline of okay. And that's really important. However, they don't build skills that make kids stronger for the next time change and challenge come into their life. And for us, that was that aha moment. It was like, oh, okay, so what are the skills? that help with mental health resilience? What are, what does that look like? How are we, how do we make kids stronger and more resilient? for their mental, emotional, social health? Beyond comfort. What's that piece? And so this is where the Mesh platform really came together and we identified eight skills and that's the basis of all of the Mesh platform. So many of these skills already are created and developed through play. We're already doing a lot of these things. And so therefore what would happen if we intentionally thought about it? Okay, so this is an actual moment that I share and explains my dorkiness, but I was like, oh cool. I get it Here's eight skills. I've been in the industry for 30 years I'm gonna go into a store and find product that builds these skills and I literally did this I walked into a store and I stood there and I was like, okay Self advocacy and I stood there and stared all over the store and was like have no idea. I have no idea what, and I'm walking around and I'm like, my gosh if I can't figure this out and I feel like I've, I know play pretty well, I know toys, but I've been in the industry forever, right? How does a parent, a caregiver, a grandparent figure out we can say these are the skills you want to build, but how do we help them actually understand what play builds these skills? And that's where we realized we needed to identify play patterns that were much easier to understand and much easier to think about as you're looking at toys and games for kids. When we looked at these four play patterns we identified, collectively, they built these eight skills pretty intentionally through the play patterns. This is where it was like, okay, problem solving, storytelling, increasing challenge over the duration of play, and then products that draw kids and their adults. together. And these aren't categories of product. It's not like we're saying outdoor products or science products, or it's play patterns that can be across all different categories. And that made it so much more possible to walk into a store and say, let me find a product that is about problem solving. Let me find a product that has increasing challenges while you play it, right? Let me find a product that has storytelling, that's encouraging storytelling. And it made it so much easier than trying to. Decipher from the idea of eight skills into actual physical product, Looking ahead at the potential broader impact of this. I see an opportunity where there is a line of product that every company develops. Maybe a small assortment of four products at first, and maybe it's eventually eight products. They are intentionally developing products to help kids. Develop the eight mesh skills. I can imagine five years down the line, maybe 10 years down the line where this becomes a core category that companies not just figure out what existing products already meet these skills, but intentionally develop products from the ground up. To help someone get over something like a loss in their family. To help someone get over moving from one town to another and having to make new friends. Products specifically for that is almost like the vegetables, of toys instead of the candy. I wonder if you see that this, the mesh, I don't know if it's like the mesh category has the potential to do that for this industry. So it's really interesting because we've been talking a lot about this and are we looking for products that do all of these or are we looking and we're, we want, look at it more as honestly, like a nutrition plate, like the food pyramid, right? But the idea that what we're hoping that this encourages to your point is intentionality. Is, can we intentionally build these skills through play? Now, it doesn't mean that we're looking for products that build all these skills. There's that sort of magical product that does everything, but it's can we say, Hey, I think about think fun, cause that's the space that, that I'm in. And I. I think we are really great at problem solving and increasing challenges, right? So what does that look like? We're really great at perseverance, adaptation, cognitive skills, problem solving. Awesome. If we can do that with intentionality to really drive and help that, and then that's balanced with a product that is really amazing in that storytelling space where they're looking at that self advocacy, right? Explaining, explaining your feelings, explaining your experiences and communication strategies. How are you able to communicate your thoughts? How are you able to communicate a story, right? And so you start to see the idea of this like nutrition plate where it's different kinds of play that come together to And together build this. And so if we look at something that was like a mesh category, what would be amazing about it is that it's not stuck in one thing. As I was saying before, it's not, you could have outdoor play that has increasing challenges and builds problem solving and perseverance, and you could have science kits that build cognitive skills I think that's what's so beautiful about it is it's the idea of just bringing this to the surface and just providing a framework. To your point, does that help us intentionally focus on building these skills? And what does that look like down the road? Absolutely. I know people are wondering like, who is we, who is behind mesh? So mesh helps. org was inaugurated by ThinkFun, a division of Ravensburger in partnership with Dr. Deborah Gilboa. But, last year. You have formed a separate organization. So the mesh is its own entity now, correct? Exactly. So this was also, again, this is that kind of thing that like you start and you don't realize quite how big and every week you're like, Oh, it's bigger. Oh, it's bigger. Oh, it's it's been wild. There was two main things that we found out as we were developing this and it was growing and growing. First of all, when we looked at this. the research and we said, wow, this is way bigger than ThinkFun. This is way bigger than Ravensburger. This really is a way of, to your point, intentionally building and impacting kids. It should be everybody, right? It needs to be the industry. It shouldn't be one manufacturer, shouldn't be one brand. And so therefore it made much more sense to make it into a nonprofit that can actually take the mission of building resiliency through play and build that from the industry perspective, not from one specific manufacturer's platform, for sure. So yeah, we changed, it was actually the very beginning of this year, we formed the entity there is a board of directors on this entity that has people from all over the industry, from retail, from manufacturing, all over the place who've come together where we can take the ideas of strengthening resilience through play and actually implement them and get them out. How well do you say the industry is embracing this mesh movement from retailers to manufacturers? It's been absolutely wild. People are understanding. It's becoming a word people are interested in and engaging in. And it's just been fascinating. We've got people reaching out to us from all over the industry, saying Hey, I want to learn more. Hey, I want to be involved. How can I, how can I get involved? We even had Kidscreen, which is the children's entertainment organization, really focused on media and entertainment, reach out to us and ask us to come and keynote their conference. It was really interesting to see how this topic, and trying to figure out a platform, a communication some kind of framework to be able to really address this topic. So it's been a wild ride in that it could be really impactful on way beyond even the toy industry. The concept of mesh, of course, of mental, emotional, social health existed. previously, absolutely. But introducing a framework that is specific to this industry and presenting it to people in a way that is easily digestible and creating now the accreditation program, which we'll get into next. To get clear on what products meet the standards and which don't is there's so much value to that. Now we need to put a standard to it. We all need to agree what it required, what a product is required to do to meet this standard. So that we can all rally behind this, that we can rally behind this movement, that parents can trust it. And that kids are actually helped by the products that are branded as such with, and not just buying things that are branded mesh when they actually aren't designed to help with that. The first thing I really want to is the word or the acronym mesh. We didn't create it. We, it was just starting to percolate in a couple of the education circles. We saw it in some of the information around the California education system and then the American Camp Association. That's the association for summer camps. They had been starting to use it to talk about building these kinds of skills, and there was a couple other places. And for us, it was about taking that and pulling together to your point, an idea behind it that really was actionable that you could look at and say, okay, get this. I can do something with this, to focus on building resiliency through play. I'd like to move on to the MeSH accreditation program that you are building out. You have brought in fundamentally children to help and be that independent third party to decide what the standards are for MeSH products. How have you guys been working together? This was the number one request that we got from manufacturers. We got from retailers. We got from parents was, okay, what's the product? Show me the product. What's the product? What does this? STEM was created by the National Science Association, I believe, as a really an academic and educational direction. And so as it came into the toy industry, all the different companies were self evaluating and saying, Yeah, we're making stem product. They would make their own logo and put it out. And then somebody else would say, Yeah, we're making stem product. They would make a logo and put it on. And it wasn't until the Toy Association pulled together and said, we would like a steam framework. We would like something that, that gives boundaries and identifies what does this look like? And they did it with Fundamentally Children. And we actually had product go through that process and we thought it was fantastic. We thought it was a really. Beautiful report. We got back. It was really informational. It was really well done. And so when people kept coming to us saying, Hey, we'd like you to make some kind of rubric, some kind of accreditation so that we do it from the start. So everyone's using kind of the same goals and the same logo, and it has real meaning to it. So we actually reached out to Dr. Gummer. And said, you do such a beautiful job here, right? Is this something that you'd be interested in? And it was really fantastic to, to bring them on board and to be working with them because they have so much expertise in child development, in, in child psychology, in, in all these places that really rounded out this whole program for us. And so we started working with Fundamentally Children to put together what does that rubric look like? What does that framework look like? And then we also had a huge request. Could we please have the inaugural class of master accredited product for Q4 of 24? So that kind of gave us our timeline of what we're doing. So we opened up a presale. So anybody who says, yes, I want my product to be considered for that inaugural class. So the pre sales are open right now. If you go to meshhelps. org, you can get all the information right on there and actually click through and buy a pre sale. You don't have to know what your product is. You just have to know, okay, I know I want to submit one product or two products or three products for it. And that pre sale, there's also a reduced price cause we know people are buying into something that's, They can't fully see yet, right? Which is a leap of faith and a real commitment to this idea. So that's open right now. That ends May 17th and then the products will be due at the end of May to go into the testing and to go into the accreditation. Again, we're not looking for products that do everything right. How do we say that it intentionally builds these skills? The key thing there is. intentionally, right? And so as we've been stress testing these ideas and putting different products through, and the perfect example we found is building blocks. We think building blocks are amazing, right? I hope every child out there has the opportunity to have a set of building blocks, right? Building blocks in themselves, many children will use them, will play with them in a way that builds some mesh skills. Some kids will problem solve with them. Some kids will, see how tall of a tower they can build and then have that sort of perseverance aspect. Some kids will look at them and build towns and create stories and they can start to really have that communication strategy and that, self advocacy of explaining experiences. But the blocks themselves don't intentionally do. The blocks are an amazing tool, right? So we would say a set of building blocks. It does not intentionally build these skills, although a lot of kids will build the skills just by using them. Therefore we would say that's not a MeSH product, right? We are looking for products that intentionally build these skills. So if you had a set of building blocks that had, say, challenge cards that came with them, hey, here's the first challenge is build a tower of three, build a tower of five, build a tower of seven, build a tower, right? How high can you build, right? That would be taking that tool. And intentionally focus on building some of the mesh skills in the process. So then that would be what we would say, okay, this would be in a mesh accredited product. I like the fact that before people can start building their own logos, like they did with steam and stem, I do really appreciate the fact that there will be an official accreditation. I remember working at a company and we released a bunch of STEM products. And I remember when I realized that, Oh, we just make up the logo. I was so confused. I was like, is this legal? What are you, what are we doing? But yeah, no, that's just, that's how it's always been. And then I, and I did notice I would go and look at all the different brands and every STEM, STEAM logo was different. And that is just the way it's been. So I think it's highly valuable that you are having the accreditation is being built right from the get go. And we can be more intentional about the products that we're recommending to the community as far as being MeSH. So I want to go over some FAQs that people are asking about this MeSH accreditation program. Number one, if they're looking to go to meshhelps. org slash accreditation and they are going to, fill out that information, pay that fee. How can they know if the product that they will eventually submit will actually pass the MeSH accreditation? What things are you going to be looking for? This is where the play patterns really are helpful. So if you have a product that is focused on storytelling, or you have a product that has increasing challenges over the duration of play, Most likely that product develops these skills. This is why we identified those play patterns. So it's a really great way to look at your product and to say, okay, is this a problem solving product, right? Through the play of this product are my presenting problems that have to be solved in the course of play. Is this a product that intentionally Draws kids and adults together, right? Then pretty darn sure it's going to be about communication strategies and conflict resolution and build those skills in that process. So if you look at those four key play patterns and your products in those, most likely it absolutely is building these skills. So that's the first rule of thumb. The goal is to create products that build these skills. And so if there is a product that comes in that doesn't pass you will get with it a report that says, Okay, your product doesn't pass for this reason, right? But here are ideas of what you could do that would make it. a mesh toy, right? So again, if you came in with building blocks and said, okay, but kids use it to problem solve, and we would say that great, but that means, can you do that intentionally? Can you build that intentionally? And here's some ideas. And then you can resubmit for up to 12 months at no fee. Our goal is to have people help people build products that intentionally do this. In the evaluation process of the MeSH accreditation, fundamentally children as that third party body led by Dr. Amanda Gumner, will be testing your product a minimum of three times. Three play sessions with children from a wide range of backgrounds. Their staff has credentials in child development and or education. And as you just said, Rachel, if you don't pass, you'll get a clear report expressing why and you'll have a window of 12 months to resubmit without an additional fee to potentially pass. Exactly. Yep. Fantastic. There are two different review levels though, what is the difference between that standard review level and an enhanced review? So this is one of the questions when we were putting this together and we were working with Fundamentally Children, and I have to say for a minute, huge shout out to the work that they've done on Steam and to the Toy Association for initiating that, because it really paved the way to make this happen. And we've learned so much about your own products go through that amazing review. And also then Fundamentals Children has had a great experience with learning what are the nuances there. We knew we wanted this to be really accessible. And so we looked at the level of reporting that comes with different kinds of accreditations out in the market, and there's sometimes we know you really want to say, is this accredited? Can I use the seal on my marketing? And can I use the seal on my packaging? And, for the life of the product, there's other times where you're like, Oh, tell me more, right? Like you've got in the hands of a child development specialist, your product, right? Them observing kids playing with it. They're seeing things. They're reviewing things. And you want to know like that element. You want to, you want that report that is showing you what a specialist is seeing about your product. How is that child playing with it? What is the reaction that they're getting? And then you have pieces for your marketing where you're able to quote, a child development specialist about the review. And so the idea is the standard review is a really like a one pager that says, okay, we reviewed your product, here's the basics, and it does this and it does this and you've passed, you've got the seal for the life of the product. The enhanced review says. What are the reflections? What are the experiences that were observed? What are the thoughts of the child development specialist who's reviewing it to give you more insight into your product and your play patterns and those pieces, but also to have more to be able to use throughout your marketing, to use in your materials. If you have, Parent guides or educator guides or it gives you more overall to be able to use from that review So if your product passes you said you have that seal for the life of the product What constitutes the end of the life of a product? Is it a product refresh? Okay, if you are submitting a product that's part of a product line, and every product in that product line is the same, except for the graphics, right? So you have a puzzle. And you have, it's a 500 piece puzzle and you have 2, 500 piece puzzles and each one's a different graphic, right? What we're saying is you need to submit for that you would need to submit 10 percent or at least 3, depending on which one, equates to 10% of that product line for accreditation. And then we would need to see the other visuals. Just in terms of actually don't send samples, but actually just an image of okay, and here's this, here's the unicorn one and here's the puppy one and here's the, dragon one. And then you could have the accreditation. across, right? The reason we need to see every single piece before it is able to have the seal is because there are a couple benchmarks that we've said would not be mesh. Anything depicting drugs, anything depicting alcohol and anything that is violent or is depicting violence would not be something we would say is mesh. So you might have a puzzle that. Is a great puzzle, and it's got, horns and puppies, and then you have another puzzle that's maybe geared for an older crowd that has wine. And so we would say, okay, these are the ones that are mash, the ones that, that fall into this, into that bracket. So there's also the idea of if you have a product line where you have a main set, and then you have accessory sets that go with it, right? And for some people, they might just want to have the main set submitted. But if you are, and you say, okay, I want to have the main set and I want to have accessory sets, I want them all to be able to carry the mesh, right? There's a reduced price for those additional sets so that you can review the whole thing. But a key thing to note is if you have a play set, That has lots of characters, and it's a very storytelling playset, and they're building communication strategies, and self advocacy, and, adaptation, or whatever is happening in that playset. And then an accessory is the van that the characters would drive in, right? Every product will be looked at as if it existed in its own world, as if the child only got the van, right? So the van might not pass to be mesh as it's just the van without the characters, but of course the main set that has the full play set would be mesh. And so this is why we have to be able to look at each one and to understand how is that played if the child just had that product. What does that look like? Now for MeSH accredited products, is there going to be a standalone website that features products that were approved, that were accredited? So there absolutely will be a library of every product that is accredited. The eventual goal. So this is like the dream in five years, bear with me here. So when we went to, to talk at Kids Screen with the children's entertainment industry, we actually got a lot of requests to say, Hey, would you do this for entertainment properties as well? Would you do this for. Digital product, right? Could not just the physical, okay, here is a toy and this toy is mesh. But if I have a television show, and episode number 14 is all about building perseverance, could there be a way that I could have that mesh accredited for my digital product? And whoa, right? So here's what, ready for this one. Second is the big, All of Bluey is gonna be mesh accredited. You got it. But this is the beautiful thing of it. So then imagine this, it's five years from now. Yeah. And you are a parent or caregiver and you're saying, you know what? My kiddo is really struggling right now with they just give up on everything right away. I want them to build perseverance, right? Or they're just challenged. I'm not sure what's going on. You go to mesh helps. org. Yeah. And you see the eight skills and you say, ah, perseverance. Yeah. if I could help my kiddo build perseverance, it would be such a benefit, right? So you put in, okay, I have a seven year old. And what would come up is here is a list of master credited products, intentionally build perseverance. And here is a list of children's entertainment, digital products that also intentionally build perseverance. And you could really like 360 it. And so that's where this whole thing, the vision of what this could be for sure. And that was the, there was a big moment for us that we were at kid's green. It was like, Oh my gosh. If we could get to that level that allowed us to look at multiple, all the touch points that kids have and the interactions they have with different kinds of products and if they could all be reinforcing You know, specific skills, wouldn't that be even more impactful than what we alone in the 20th street could do? A hundred percent. And I can even envision someone getting a license for an iconic brand like Bluey. And the being told, you know what, we need you to develop a specific mesh product that goes along with this episode when that'd be cool. Yeah. So then you, the parent can watch this episode and engage with the product that furthers the lessons in that episode, which, yeah, that'd be, would be really cool. What a vision. I love it. And now anyone listening might be saying, I want to be a part of this vision. How much does it cost to submit your products for a mesh review? Right now we have the pre sale going on and with the pre sale so for one to four products, it's 6 99 per skew. Five to nine is 6 49. And 10 plus is 5. 99. And those prices will go up after May 17th. So this is just, again, this is that pre sale. This is for those folks who are like, I'm all in. Standard review. Those were all standard review pricing. For the enhanced review, for the one that gives you that full report, that five or six page report, and really digs in with quotes from the child development specialist one to four products is 8. 99. 5 to 9 is 8. 49, and 10 plus is 7. 99. Okay. So we try to make these as accessible as possible, and really still have a robust reviewing process that happens. And do you have any idea of how much the price will increase past the date? So the standard review will regularly be 7. 99. So you're able to get between 100 and 200 off per item depending on the volume. And I don't know if we had Yeah, the enhanced review was at 9. 99. And when does that discount end? Can you restate that? Sure. May 17th is when we close the pre sales. Okay. And after you can still submit after that for sure, you'll just be at the normal pricing And as far as anyone who submits by May 17th, when will they find out if their product is accredited? So our goal is to have all of the products start testing in The very beginning of June. So we're going to have, say, all samples have to come in because again, the kids actually play with the product, right? So all samples come in by the end of May, and then we test in June, July. So you'll find out so that we can launch it in September. So the inaugural announcement about here is the first, grouping of master credited product. Will be in September. Right in time for Q4. Perfect. In time for Q4. Awesome. And as you said before, it was really important to us that when you get the seal, you get the seal for the lifetime of the product. And you had asked what happens if I refresh the product, right? As long as the product stays the same then that is, that mesh seal applies to that product. If you change the product, which really means I think it's going to come down to, we haven't, again, exactly sussed out how this works, but probably if you've changed in the skew number. So if there's changes substantial enough to, be changing, then we'd have to come back and we'd have to talk about, is there, maybe there's a reduced price to, to, reevaluate that kind of thing. So we absolutely will work through it through those details with everyone, but we wanted to make sure this isn't a license where you're paying every year. It's not like you're paying to use it in social and paying something else to use it on product. It's. It's an accreditation, right? It's not an award. It's an accreditation. So when you have it and that's the product that has it, it has it all the way through its life cycle. And the initial launch of MESH is focused in North America, correct? Yes. And actually for MESH helps as well. We've been really focused on North America and it's funny when we first started the research, we first started very much focused on North America. And then. Again, I'm, ThinkFun is part of Ravensburger, so I brought this to the global team and had the same conversation we were having with the industry here hey, is this relevant to you guys? And what we found, and we started doing research in Europe, started doing research in Asia, what we found is the challenges around mental health, are everywhere. Every culture handles them a little bit differently. So we knew that for us we're based here in North America and we thought, this is the place that we can understand culturally how we do this in a sensitive way, how we do this in a culturally appropriate way. We're going to start here, but the goal is absolutely to grow. It's already starting in the UK. Richter had written a really amazing article about mesh and the platform and published it in Toy World out in the UK, so we're getting a lot of interest there. And then of course, as we brought in Dr. Gummer, who's UK based, a lot of interest has been happening there as well. But the goal is to eventually look at really a global movement, but we know we've got to start in steps. This whole process feels like it's, this could be so big, but we have to figure out, okay, like what's the next step? What's the next step? How do we build this thoughtfully and intentionally in a way that allows us to be the most impactful in the longterm? You are head of ThinkFun, so I'm sure you're submitting products to the MeSH accreditation as well. Absolutely. Yeah. How did you decide how many products was, it was worth it to submit for this accreditation? Somebody listening might be thinking are retailers really getting behind this accreditation? Are they really feeling that this is an important seal to have. Is this going to help me make sales? Is this really going to help my customers or consumers? Identify my product and help them with this. How are you valuing the cost of the accreditation versus the return on it? That's a great question. And a lot of what we're trying to do at Mesh Helps is also Work with retailers and work with companies to start to build the value of what this will mean for manufacturers. Of course, again, it's a step by step process. And so for ThinkFun personally, we look at it and we say, what are our, what are the major launches and who's our audience, right? And is our audience, the audience that we feel this message And understanding that the impact of what this could do would really help and really build. And so that's how we're looking at to say like, where are the places where we want to lean in and say, yes, we expect this product to be a product that's around. For, for a long time and have a real impact. And it's a little different for ThinkFend because we are so much working with educators anyway. So we're so much in the space. We have a product Zingo that, is one of those things we joke. We're like, it's really in every kindergarten classroom in the country. That's what we want it to be because it's this very educational base. So it's a little bit different for us than I think it would be for others. If anyone is listening and they're in the early stages of a developing a product that they already think is in the social and emotional category of play, what would you recommend they consider if they want to assure that their product will pass meta mesh accreditation? Are there ways you would suggest they play test or people you would suggest they share it with just to try to get some pre vetting before they eventually launch the product and submit it for mesh accreditation? Absolutely. it comes down to our goal is to build these eight mesh skills. It comes back over and over to the idea of intentionally building these skills. So if you look at those eight mesh skills and you say, okay, my product. Is there a way that I can intentionally build those skills versus just oh, I know a kid could play with it this way, but is there a way that I can reinforce that? Is that through rules? You usually see that like how they describe how to play with it. Or is it like you said, action cards? How do you create intention? It can be all different things. So some products do it just naturally in the sense of the product. If you look at a jigsaw puzzle. Right. A jigsaw playing with a jigsaw puzzle is problem solving. Yeah, there's a goal to achieve, right? And there's a lot of perseverance, depending on how many pieces are and how, or how old, one of the things we talked about a lot is, problem solving looks different for a four year old. Then it looks like for a 10 year old, right? And so it's okay. When you look at a problem solving product, it could be very different, but it's still, is there a problem to solve and is that inherent in the play to, to enjoy to play with that I'm problem solving. So that, and that it's just inherent in the play other products. might need a little direction to them. Other products might be one where you say, okay we go back to blocks, right? Like here's a set of blocks, but I'm going to add challenges. Here are 10 challenges. Can you achieve, or I'm going to add characters. into my block. So there's a really amazing kind of storytelling. I'm like, you have blocks that you're focused on that has graphics on it that look like castles. And so I'm really focused on helping the kids build that world. And maybe I didn't say can you create an amazing castle and tell a story of this character? Or, are there ways you can intentionally help to drive that skill building through play? So it really depends on the product. But I think as long as you look at those eight skills and say, Hey, What can I do with this product, with this play to make sure I'm intentionally supporting and building this? In the kiddos who will be playing with this is the way to go. Yes. Perfect. All right. Thank you so much, Rachel. That was super helpful. Where can people go to find out more about MeSH, get involved as a retailer or get involved as a manufacturer and apply for that accreditation? Awesome. So mesh helps. org is absolutely the place to go. There's a page specifically for accreditation, which I think you actually said before was the mesh helps. org slash accreditation. But there's also a ton of resources. Yes. Rachel, thank you so much for joining us here today. It's always a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you so much for inviting me. I love the fact that we launched here and now we're coming back for this announcement about this accreditation on the Toy Coach podcast. Yes. And if you couldn't write down all the links we were sharing, all you have to do is head over to the toycoach. com and you'll find the links in the mentioned in this episode section. That was my interview with Rachel Harmuth, head of ThinkFun, who helped launch MeshHelps. org and now is turning it into this incredible accreditation program. So I hope you enjoyed this episode. And if you love this podcast and you find it valuable and keeping you up to date with what's going on in the toy industry so you can make it in the toy industry, I would truly appreciate it if you take a moment and leave a review for this podcast. Now, if you're on Apple podcast, you can scroll all the way down to the bottom of the show and look for a writer review section. But if you're finding it hard to find that review section, you can also just head over to the toy coach. com forward slash review, and you can leave us a Google review. Your reviews do keep me motivated to keep coming back week after week with incredible guests and solo episodes, keeping you informed and educated about the toy industry. As always, I thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I know your time is valuable and that there are a ton of podcasts out there. So it truly means the world to me that you tune into this one until next week. I'll see you later, toy people.