#221: Should You Partner With Another Toy or Game Inventor?

Are you thinking about teaming up with a partner for your toy or game invention? But what if it isn’t the right move for you? Tune into this episode of "Making it in the Toy Industry," where Azhelle Wade chats with April Mitchell about the ins and outs of partnering up in the world of invention. April is a licensed inventor and the co-creator of the Tabletop Game Design Masterclass. In this episode, she shares key considerations you should keep in mind when choosing a partner for your next big idea.

April Mitchell, an experienced inventor and designer, brings her unique perspective to the mic in this episode. With no formal education in design or toys, April has successfully navigated the tricky waters of the toy and housewares industries to license her innovations—and in this 2 part episode, she’s sharing how!

April’s four kids double as her creative team, playtesting and contributing to her toy studio, 4A’s Creations. She delves into the benefits of bouncing ideas off a collaborator, leveraging different strengths, and avoiding creative burnout. Curious about what other nuggets of wisdom are in store? Hit play on this episode to find out, and subscribe so you don’t miss part 2!

In part two, April Mitchell returns to discuss achieving goals and nurturing self-worth so you can be ready to receive the success that is meant for you. Listen now.


Episode Cliff Notes:

•  Discover April Mitchell's inspiring journey from having no formal design education to signing successful licensing agreements in the toy industry.
• Learn about the unique product that marked April's entry into the housewares market—a clever invention called "Right Height."
• Find out how April’s four children play a crucial role in testing and developing her toy and game ideas.
• Explore the value of partnerships in game design and the benefits of brainstorming with collaborators in the industry.
• Hear about the challenges of fitting game components into limited shelf space and managing packaging constraints.
• Learn how using kids in content creation for products and social media can provide authentic and engaging promotional material.
•  Don't miss the pivotal advice on effective communication and following up with companies to ensure your ideas get noticed.

Transcript

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You are listening to making it in the toy industry. Episode number 221. Welcome to making it in the toy industry, a podcast for inventors, entrepreneurs and makers like you. And now your host, Ajel Wade. Hey there, toy people. Azelle Wade here. And welcome back to another episode of making it in the toy industry. This week I've got April Mitchell on the show, friend of the show, one of the first people to believe in me, and Toy Creators Academy, and now one of the first creators on toycourses.com with her incredible course, tabletop game design Masterclass, which she co created with Ed Garten. April Mitchell of four Ace Creations, LLC is a professional inventor and designer. She works in several industries among the twin toy and game industry as well. She signed licensing agreements with companies. And April, as I said, is that co designer of the tabletop game design Masterclass? Wonder what that is. You will find out more in this episode. But right now, I've got to say, April, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. Like, this is just a full circle moment from hearing your first, your very first episodes, I remember, and inspiring me and heading to New York several years ago and meeting you in person to now feeling like, oh, my gosh, we're friends. We're working together on things. And this is just fantastic being here. So thank you so much for having me. I just got chills and I remembered, like, oh, I remember that night so well. I have a great photo from that night. You made me feel like what I was doing with this podcast mattered. And thank you for that because I. Yeah, I didn't know if anyone was listening. I was. We were. You have such a huge following and. And it does matter so much. And I remember exactly the episode that just got me fired up, which was about making your game toy etic. Like, making things toy etic. And it really just inspired me to make some tweaks and changes to take some concepts to New York that year, and it was fantastic. So thank you for that. Oh, you're welcome. Oh, I want to do more episodes like that. I missed that so much. Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you. April, I want to hear you finish this sentence. Me. The thing that surprised me most about the toy industry was how hard it is. No, really. But I love it. Like, I love the challenge and I love, like, the people. But, you know, coming from my first, my first products were in the housewares industry. And I felt like, you know, you could change one thing or make a different, like, make something just different a little bit. And it's a whole new concept. But with the toy and game industry, you need to really have that wow factor. You need to really differentiate yourself that new item and have it be, you know, familiar, but also not too close to what's already on the market. So it took a little bit of time for me to, you know, really improve on some things and get to where I am today. So, yeah, I was surprised on how difficult it was, but it doesn't mean it can't. You can't get far, right? Because you. You met me when I was starting out in the industry, and now I have many, many licenses under my belt, and I'm teaching other inventors and designers on how to do what I've done. So I'm living proof that you can have no education in the toy and game industry or design. Right. I can't make cads. I am not an artist, but I still can create and license. So I think that's super important to know that whether you've gone to school for design or you've been in the toy industry, or you're just a mom, I don't want to say just. But you're a mom like me, who just wanted to have fun and create some things. And I had no background experience. I learned it all. Oh, my gosh. She said so many things. I want to comment on. One, just a mom just making human life out of nothing. But, yeah, I guess the man helped you, but. And then two, not having any cads experience, I, you know, I think I overlook the fact that people might. That might hold people back. You don't need cat experience. I have years of cat experience, and I actually just got done developing a game for a client, and I use none of my cat experience to do it. And it's a really good game. Okay. And then the third. The third thing that you said, oh, you started in the housewares industry. Can you share what that first item was that you got licensed in that industry? Yeah. So I licensed two items. My first one never actually made it to market, which is super sad, but I am actually trying to get it relicensed. So I will touch on my second product, which is right height over the door hook, which is actually, if you're watching the video, you can see it's above my shoulder on the. On the shelf there. But it's an adjustable over the door hook so that basically anyone can reach it to put up their coats or towels or whatever they need to be, whether they're, you know, a young kid or someone with limited mobility or in a wheelchair that just can't reach that high. So for me, it was a lifesaver because my kids were young and they could bathe themselves, but they could not reach their towel on the hook. So, yeah, so that was a great experience. Really got me into learning the process. And then once I learned the process, I thought, well, gosh, if we can do this in the housewares industry, why can't we do this with what we're doing at home? And I have a background in education, so when I was a teacher, I made games for the classroom. And then once I started having kids, I made games for the kids with, you know, with some different themes that they were interested in that I couldn't find on the market. Right. But then with some twists, because they were active boys and they wouldn't sit very long and they don't want to do flashcards, right. So, like, things that could help them learn where they didn't realize they were learning, you know, like, it was just fun. And so I thought, well, what can we do to turn these things into a licensed product? So that's kind of how I got started into the, the toy and game industry. Well, wait, let's add some color to that. How many kids do you have? I have four boys, girls. What are they? Yeah. So three boys and a girl. And they're in that order. And they are very close in age. So when I had the youngest, the girl, the oldest was not yet five. So I had four kids under the age of five. So it was very crazy for many years. Now they're all teenagers, and the oldest is 19 and the youngest is 14. So, you know, now I can catch my breath a little bit. And I know we're going to talk about this later, but now they help with the development process, they help with the design. They playtest everything I make. They're in all the videos. It's funny to hear people say, oh, my gosh, your kids are getting old. You know, they're getting so big. I've seen them grow up in videos, you know, because they've been such a huge part of this journey, which I think is one of the reasons why I enjoy it so much, because it's not just my job or my passion, but I also get to do a lot of it with my family, which I really, really enjoy. You know, I recently did an episode with Zigazoo, which is a safe social media platform for kids, and it just had me thinking about how parents use their kids in their content creation, and that's a whole thing that Zigazoo deals with and stuff. Well, they just have a safe space for kids. But what is just interesting is how you have this way that you kind of use your kids in your content, but it's like this private content, and it's this thing that comes and lives for a little bit and goes, and you're building this fun relationship with them and building a product and a business and they're experiencing that. It's such a, it's such a different and unique way to connect with your kids with, like, content and so, and content creation and business development, which I really, I just appreciate, as you were saying, that I saw parallels between what parents try, like, kind of do on social media, but this is a way better version. It's like a private, we're building something for our family that will grow your college fund and improve our house. Like, I don't know. I just. Yeah, exactly. Well, and the thing is, too, is they all have time behind the camera because sometimes they don't want to be in the video or they want to, you know, get the right angle or whatnot. Then a lot of them have done voiceovers for the videos, so they've had a part of that. And then a couple of the kids, the younger two, have done the young inventor challenge that people play so that they've actually created a video and have had to present in front and explain their game or their toy and done the voiceover for it all and all those things. And I actually pitch some of their items for them where they've also helped. They were the main inventor of things. And then I pitch it and I help them with the video and everything, too. So they've seen and they've learned not only the content creation, but also the hard work, the fails, the celebrations, right. All of it. So they see, you know, they see mom not do so good sometimes and pick herself up and keep going. Mom travel, mom living out her passion. And I think that's really important for all parents, you know, not just moms, but for kids to see, see you fail and succeed and celebrate the wins with you and see that you don't give up, you know? And so I think the whole experience has been good for all of us, really. That's so beautiful. Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you. Well, just to touch on that quick is I worked from the home. I was a stay at home mom for many years. So when I started really putting time into my own passion, I kind of felt guilty. I felt guilty for the time I was spending on it. I felt guilty for, you know, traveling. And then I realized, no, no, no. There should be no guilt here, right? There should. It should be guilt free. They are learning so much from watching me do what I'm doing. And I just want to say that to all parents, if you're struggling with that, because it's important for kids to see us follow our dreams and make something that we're excited about. Yeah. And you're showing them the good and the bad. You're not just showing them the good and the wind. You're showing them, like, look, things get rough, and we still. We push through. This is how we make it work, and it's still worth it. Even we have the nose. Right? Okay. We talk. We've talked about the process of licensing games and things a lot on this podcast, and we will do this again with you. But before we go there, I want you to teach me something. What is the process like in housewares? I feel like the process is relatively the same. Right. You come up with a new design, a new product. What's different is sometimes I may have a prototype, and sometimes I just have a virtual prototype, and you can pitch that. And if they know, oh, we make things out of metal, we can make our own prototype, or might have cads, at least that they can go off of that. I might not have the prototype. So I find that in other industries, you can get away with a virtual prototype or cad files in a nice rendering. But in the toy and game industry, you know so well, people want to touch it. They want to feel it, they want to play with it. They want to make sure it works. They want to see people have fun with it. And so in the toy and game industry, you have to have a prototype. So I will say that, you know, you might be able to do that in other industries, especially the housewares industry, with some things, and especially, too, like, even novelty, like the vegetable peeler that I designed, called the caterpillar, was simply a drawing. I had the idea, seriously. And my youngest son, he's a great artist, and I said, here. Here's a vegetable peeler. I want you to make it look. Draw one for me and make it look like a caterpillar. And I wrote the caterpillar on top of the page, and I submitted it to the company, and that's all that they need, is a drawing, a sketch. And you can't do that with many other companies. But I studied the company, Fred and friends. I had submitted several other things to them before, and I knew that I could just submit it that way, and I did. And the name fit with the product and so it was easily done. And so the counterpealer vegetable peelers, super fun and cute, but we just submitted a drawing for it and licensed it. So as someone who has seen deals in toys and seen deals in housewares, is there a lower percentage that is more common in housewares versus toy? Why do you think there is this big differentiation? Is toys more competitive? Why do you, from your experience, why do you think that housewares is okay without the prototypes, whereas toy isn't? You know, that's, that's a really good question, and I think it's going to differ per company. But I think with housewares, if you're, if you're pitching something that's made out of metal to a company, for example, like me, and the right height over the door hook, right. They already made hooks. They deal with metal. They have a factory that does all their metal work for them. And for them seeing a video, I did actually have a prototype for that one made out of plastic. And I showed how it worked and they got the concept and they could say, oh, this solves a problem. And I think that's the thing, is a lot of times the housewares industry, or maybe the pet industry or whatever it may be, is your problem solving. And if they can see that need and that problem being solved, and they already know they can do it with their factories and their designers, then I think it's easier to get to a yes. When, when you're working with the toy and game industry, you're not often solving a problem and you're trying to have the biggest. Wow. The most fun, a new technique. You're having a trend, right? You're really competing with that. Yeah. And you can, you know, you can google and find different ways people are trying to solve a problem. So you can say, oh, there's a problem, but, you know, this is not working, or this isn't working, or the products currently on the market don't really meet the demand of what people are wanting. And you can alter something just a few different ways and have a new product. But in the game and toy industry, if you just change one thing, you look like you're copying the other company. Right. You need to show that yours is very much different, so you don't look like that copy cat. So for me, I think that's why. Interesting. That is so interesting. Yeah, that's very true. You're just solving a problem, whereas toy and game. It's, it's a lot more than that. It's trends. It's what buyers want. It's sales because it's like, it's fashion type trends as far as, like, icons and color. But then it's sales trends. All of that married with just the person you're pitching to. They think they can champion this through, and then who they pitch it to, if they can champion, it's just so. Many different, the shelf space, too, was so limited, and then you're like, oh, it's got to fit in this size of the box. We love the game, but the components won't fit in this box, so now we can't license it. What a reason. That is so terrible. Okay, so when you're going on this inventor path in the toy industry and you're inventing games like you do, have you ever worked with a partner? Yes. Yes. I, besides working with my family, which we talked about a little bit about, I've worked with a good handful of partners, and I absolutely love working with a partner. And the reason is, I feel like, you know, when you brainstorm, when you, when someone just comes with just a theme or just a mechanic or just a nugget of an idea, yeah. It can take a whole other twist when you add someone else's brain to it. Like, you can start one way, and then by the end of the session, you have something completely different, then you alone would have come up with. Right. And so that, I love the brainstorming and working with people, and then also too oftentimes, you know, sometimes the people I work with, we may have very similar talents, but then other designers I work with, they may have certain specialties, and then I have certain specialties. So we lean into those, and they may do awesome 3d printing and all of that. And I take care of the video and pitching, but we both maybe make the game together. Sometimes, again, someone comes with the main idea, but then it gets hashed out, flushed out between the two of us, because I really do want to have a part in that creation. Right. I don't typically, I don't want to just say, oh, I'll pitch this. Right. That, to me, is not that partnership. A partnership is when both people are contributing to the idea itself, then also making and presenting that idea to companies. Agreed. Agreed. And I find it hard. Even when people want me to pitch something for them, I'm like, I want to. I want to be married to it the way you're married to it. If I'm going to pitch it. Like, I want to really dive in. I want to test it, I want to change it. And then, then, yeah, but if I'm just pitching your, it's so hard because I just feel disconnected and it feels inauthentic. Right. Okay. When you were considering working with someone the very first time, you were thinking about partnering, and you know that percentages of if you land a deal can range to, if you're lucky or have something really innovative, 7%. What made you think it was worth it to split that potential royalty with someone? Yeah, that's a fantastic question. So I don't know if I always had things right or figured out in the beginning, I'll say that, but what I will say now is I think people have to have that work divided. I think that if it's something that I could pay someone for, and it was completely my idea and I did most of the figuring out, then, then I would rather do a work for hire. Right. And have someone do the prototype for me. Or if, say, I, you know, back, back in the day, maybe I would maybe need help with a video or whatever it may be, so. But I would say now it's really important, again, that the work really be equal if, and this is my advice, and people can take it or leave it, but if you're going to have to split that percent with someone for the rest, the rest of your life or however long it's on the shelf, is it worth it to partner? And that may sound really harsh or critical, like, you know, hard. Right. But I think it's important to really think about that. Or is your money better spent hiring someone to do what you feel that you can't. But I feel like partnering again, for me is when both people really contribute a bit. And I've worked with partners where sometimes one person might do a little bit more work on one game, but then the next game, the other person does a little bit more work on it. Right. You know, in it and it equals out in the end. But I think that you really want to make sure it is a partnership and not where someone, you're partnering with someone just because you can't do something or you don't feel like you have the money for to hire out something. Do you have a checklist that you go through when you work, decide to work with a new partner to say you're going to do this, I'm going to do this, and, and divvy things up? I don't. I don't. And I think with every partner, it's totally different, and it varies. Certain partners, I may, we might work something out one way, but then another partner, it's a different way, and then it could change with another partner, depending on the game. Like, who has the capability to do this or who has the time do it. Yeah. If someone has more time and someone's sick or has a sick kid or is on vacation and they just want to get it done, then they might just go, okay, I got time, I'm going to do this. And then it kind of goes in. But it typically is a 50 50% split. So you've got to really feel comfortable and confident in your relationship and that partnership relationship. And if you're not feeling like it's equal or pretty equal, you might, you know, you don't want to get resentful later down the road, like, oh, I could have done this on my own, or I should have just done this on my own kind of thing, you know? And I think that's one of the ways I try to decide if I have the. If I have a game or a toy that I think maybe I should partner with someone is, I think, how much do I have already figured out, right? If I have most of this idea figured out or what, I think I can get it figured out, then maybe I'm going to keep this one and work on this by myself with my family, or see if one of my kids want to totally co design it with me. And that's happened before, too. Sometimes, you know, I'll talk about something out loud, or we'll brainstorm together, and they're like, no, I want to work on this with you, or we can do this as a family. Don't do this with anybody else, you know, because they want to have the fun in it, too. So I think it's important for us designers to have things that we do on our own and to have my own games and my own toys and say, no, I'm not going to partner with anyone on this. And I would hope other people would do the same. Yeah. Does this game require or would this game benefit from a partnership? Would be a great download, because I'm thinking, like, for example, I remember when we were going through TCA, Chrissy had a great game. She figured out the lunchroom, and she, in a meeting with me, I was like, I don't know, your game's missing something. And I gave her this little spark that she's missing, this wow factor, and I think she needs to add it. And then she worked on it, and she added this wow factor. That conversation made her game, in the sense of it added a food fight element to it, but the game, the core game, already exists. The food fight element existed as a quiet card and turned into a physical piece, but it already existed. And I don't think that's worth a partnership. However, I have had a client where they came with a game that had a great theme, but the gameplay was just all over the place, and there I had to restructure, break down new gameplay, new play process, everything, new components that could be a partnership because the main theme and focus was already there and integral to the end product, but the gameplay needed to be reworked. Right, right. I definitely see what you're saying on that. I think that's why it's also important to have friends in the industry where you. They're willing to lend an ear, which is like, hey, I've got this idea. I've got the games. I've got. I've got the cards all set up. I'd love to just walk you through it and just see what you think, or we playtest it, and I'm stuck right here. You have any thoughts? And I used to not think that was possible. I thought I had to either do it all by myself or, you know, work with someone else on it. And having that ability to just share that with friends, I mean, even if it's just one or two people that you're okay with, and you say, hey, I've got an idea, I'm stuck. Just maybe a conversation will give me a light bulb moment. Yeah. And I think that's fair. I would like to do that for. For my partners, and I hope they, you know, would, you know, be receptive of it, too. And I know that that can go a long way, and I don't think that's, like you said, it's not necessarily worth a whole partnership for just someone giving you an idea. Yeah. Or just, like, pointing you in a direction. Maybe they don't, like, give you that, you know, that exact thing to do for your game or toy, but they just point you in a direction, and then you explore it, and then you figure it out on your own. Can you talk me through, like, give us an example of a time, maybe the first time you established a partnership, or give an example of a time that you established a partnership. How does it happen? I literally want a play by play. So I was at this place. Talk to this person. You can change names to protect their identity, but, you know, I want an example that people can use and follow. If they want to establish a partnership for a project. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm gonna go with. I'm gonna. I'm gonna shout out Karin Rosalia, because we have a game coming out this summer. And what was interesting about our partnership is we both saw each other online on LinkedIn, and she was doing all kinds of awesome things, and I was just, like, following her and congratulating her. Like, I got to meet this woman, and she was to do the same thing with me. And then we met at people of play in Chicago, and we hit it off, and we're like, we should. We should work on a game together. And so we did. You know, we both came with different ideas, different themes, different starts, you know, just those sparks. And we found one that worked really well, and we, you know, it was our first time working together, so it, you know, it took some different tries, and we tried different things and play tested it. She made a lot of the prototype, different parts of the prototype. I made different parts of the prototype. We printed them off, playtested, pitched it at Mojo, and then literally, a couple months later, signed a deal the first time we worked together, and we got a deal, so. And I. And so it was so exciting. But I think, you know, you've got to get along relationship wise, is why I'm bringing this up. And other partners, too. It's, like, been an introduction. So, you know, we've had a mutual friend who's like, I think you guys might work well together. And we just got on a call and. And we found out we do, right. And then, of course, with. With Ed, who we co designed tabletop, game designed masterclass together. We, you know, he was my mentor. I used to pitch to him, and then he mentored me, and then I asked him for help of fixing a game. Right. Like, it had so much interest, but I just couldn't figure out that one thing that was missing. And so that started our relationship of, okay, now let's. Let's. Let's try co designing a game together. And it worked so well because of that. That brainstorming and that relationship that we already had built. And we worked so well together. We've licensed a couple games together, and then, of course, you know, started doing some webinars together and then did the course together and are still continuing to work together. So I think just being able to have a good start of a relationship. Right. And I think for other people, it might be. What's your missing piece? Maybe someone is great at prototyping, but they have a fear of pitching and they don't like to go to events. Maybe that person partners with someone who's bubbly and outgoing and loves pitching, right? But they can work together and do co design together. But that one person makes the prototypes. They both play test, you know, they figure out who does the, you know, the video or whatnot, and the other person is pitching. Sometimes people forget how time consuming pitching is and how costly pitching events are if you go into person, you know, so that's a big part of it. And whatever. Whoever takes that over, sometimes in my partnerships, I'm the person who does it. Other times, it's done. We both do it. We kind of, like, split up, you know, in between companies. Sometimes we try to get on calls together and do it, and then we split up what we, you know, what we can do on our own. So I think it can go really two important ways for me is relationship, right? Who you just really get along with, who you hit it off with. And because if you've got that, you can figure out the other things. I feel like you can figure out the other things, and then the two would. The second reason, or, you know, possibility, I would say, is find that person who, you know, can lean into what's not your strengths. Right. You both lean into each other's strengths and then together. Now you're like, I don't want to say the perfect game inventor, but, like, you've got all the pieces together once you come together, you know, maybe. Maybe you are the perfect game together. You know what I'd love to hear is, like, how you actually work with people. One thing I know, my husband's also in the toy and game industry, and we not. We haven't ever worked together, but we can tell by the way that we put our house together, how we design our home, that we work totally differently. Like, we are. We could not be more different. Like, he wants to think about everything first before he buys anything, before he tries anything and wants to make, like, renderings and, like, just, like, really think it through and, like, talk it through and, like, really before we commit. And I am like, oh, I have one idea. I'm gonna throw it everywhere. Like, have one idea. I'm gonna just finish it, and if it sucks, I'll just do another one. Like, I'm just, like, very all in. So if we were to try to work together in that way, it would take a minute, and we would. We might yell at each other a little bit. So, like, how do you identify the people that work, either the way you work or they work differently in a way that, like, it fills gaps. So. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know that I necessarily go out and try to identify those people because right now, like, I have my partners, and I'm not looking to partner with anyone else because my plate is so full. Right. So those. The partners that I have currently or that I have had, it just happened naturally. It's interesting. It's not like I went out, like, searching for someone to partner with, but I think that if someone is searching for someone to partner with. Right. I think it's important for them to kind of see how they are online. I know that sounds weird, but, like, how, you know, do they have a positive attitude? Do you see, like, can you see their work as, like, reflected online in some way or somehow, or maybe you have a friend that may have a mutual friend that thinks you might work well together. Like, you know, saying, hey, Joe, I'm really looking for someone who really can make models or plush, and I would be happy to pitch because, you know, I love pitching or this or that. Like, do you know anyone who would be willing to, like, you know, work on something together? I think kind of that word of mouth and that relationship building is really key. So I would say, I'm sure there are people who just, like, pick partners out of a phone book. Like, I don't even know if they make phone books anymore. You know what I mean? Like, you were dating yourself, April. I know, I know. But you know where you just like, I'll pick this one, right? You don't want to do that. You don't want to do that. But I think you really want to have the same kind of values, too, and characteristics, because if you're partnering with someone and then you realize, oh, my gosh, I can't believe they do this, or they're. They're supporting this, and I'm trying to not say anything because we're working on this project together. Like, oh, that's so true that I didn't even think about that. And the toy industry, to go further on that, is so much about relationships. So if you're pitching and they know you for working with this person and that person does something untoward, like, that could be. Have a negative ramification on you. Exactly. Exactly. It is. Yeah. It's really hard. Unfortunately, the toy world can be a little bit, like, focused on relationships to a point where you're like, I mean, I've worked with them, but I don't, like, believe everything they. You know what I mean? It's like scary sometimes. Sure. Sure. But that's the thing too, right? Is, you know, what's the, the saying, you're defined by the people, the three people you spend the most time with, right? Gosh, yes. So if you think about that, it's like what is being reflected, right? And like you said, are the, the relationships and then are just the way people see us. And so if you're being, you know, the negative Nancy over there or you think anytime a company comes out with something that has the same theme as yours, they stole your idea, then no one's going to want to work with you or whatever it may be, you know? Oh, that's great. That's very helpful. So, okay, I would love to wrap up this section on partnerships with just kind of a final question. When would you recommend someone consider, start working with a partner? Would you recommend them start right away working with a partner when it's their first game they're inventing or do you think they should do a little on their own first and then go and find a partner? Maybe. Good question. I think it's, I think it is good to try something on your own, to see something through all the way on your own. I think a lot of times people want to partner, and I'm going to say partner in air quotes when they have an idea and they want somebody else to pitch it for them, they're more so looking for a rep. But they come, you know, I'll get lots of messages saying, April, April, do you want to partner with me? I got this great idea and I need someone to pitch it and I need it someone to get it in to come in to me, that's not necessarily partnering. They're looking for someone to rep their concept. Right. And I, something to know, too is, I know oftentimes that can seem scary or overwhelming that getting into companies and pitching your concept, but I think it's really important for someone to try on their own. I really do. I think it's important to see, come up with the concept, have a fun video and then get it in front of companies on your own and see what you're good at, see what you like doing. Right. Because if you start off partnering, wanting to partner, you don't know what you enjoy doing. You don't know what your strengths are yet. So I really think it's important to try a few things on your own, figure out what you enjoy doing because then you can lean into that when you partner. Like, oh, I love doing videos or I love making prototypes and playtesting and I've got this great group for playtesting, and I can really, you know, give it my all in this area, you know, and you can come to that partnership saying, this is what I can do. This is what I'm capable of doing. What are you good at? Or what do you enjoy doing? You know, I mean, I don't know anyone, and I apologize to any companies out there if they're listening to this, but I don't know many inventors who love following up. Right? Did you get my hundredth email? Oh, my gosh, yes. That's not something we enjoy doing, but it's part of our job, and we want to see how the review went. We want to see how the play test went. We want to remind them that we're still here and we do care what they think. I know I have students messaging me in our group sometimes. Like, Azelle, this company hasn't responded to me, and I'm like, okay, I'll just send a message and see if I can find out if they're responding to anyone right now. But sometimes they're just backed up. Right, right. They are. Or there's back to back shows, or they're just, they haven't had to review or they're in a transition period. It's tricky. And I think we just have to do our job and remember that they're busy and we're one of the things on their plate, not the main thing. Their main thing is not to email April on Tuesday. Like, I know I'm not number one on their list, but if we keep showing up and we're very positive and we're professional, you know, we're going to get that response eventually. And occasionally there's just companies that you just don't ever hear back from. You'll pitch to them and you never hear back from them. You'll pitch to them and you just, you won't. Unfortunately, that's just the way it is. And then you just decide if you're going to keep pitching to them or not, you know? Right, right. If they don't respond, you know, I did have a friend who worked in, she worked on Wall street for years before starting her business. And she, the other day I went to visit her and she was telling me about the techniques you have to use when you're writing to executives. And I was like, what do you mean? What techniques? And I thought it was a really interesting point we could apply to the toy industry where she would just say, you know, they're busy, they're busy people. So, like, when you're sending them messages, don't make them long. You've got to like, bullet point it, make and give them one clear action. Like, what do you want them to do? The one thing, do you want them to watch your video? Because then they're going to watch, they're not going to respond. Or do you want them to respond? Are you trying to get another meeting? Like, what are you trying to do? So I thought that was a really good point. And especially in today's day and age where we have so many more virtual events on our calendar, we have so many more emails in our inbox. Every email has to be, if you want a response right now, you ought to make it short and quick and. Be like, right, short, sweet. And the action item needed, right? Boom, boom. This is what I need you to do, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's great. Well, we're going to have to stop right there today, toy people, because this is part one of my two part interview with April Mitchell. Yep, it's two parts. So if you want to hear the rest of this conversation, please join us right back here the same time next week. And to make sure you don't miss when this episode drops, be sure to follow this podcast. Following this podcast lets me know that you're interested in it, that you want more episodes, and it will let you know the moment a new episode drops, so you don't miss a thing. Like in last week's episode, we had a little game that offered prizes for the first 20 people that sent me a message. And if you don't follow the podcast, you can't be one of them. So please make sure you give the podcast a follow wherever you're listening. Hopefully that's in Apple Podcast or Spotify. Now, just as a quick recap for today's episode, in this part one, you got to know April Mitchell and how she started licensing her ideas outside of the toy industry and then broke into the toy industry with no cad design experience. And she's licensed many products since starting just a few years ago. April shared her insights on partnering with other inventors to develop and pitch game ideas. One of the important things you should have learned from today's episode was what to look for and when to know if you should partner with someone on an idea or if you should work on your own and if you aren't sure which to do, I just encourage you to re listen to this episode because April really broke down her process on how she thinks about it, whether it's valuable to bring someone in knowing you'll be splitting those royalties if something moves forward in next week's episode. Find out how you can learn directly from April so you can be licensing games in no time. Not only that, but we dive into a pretty deep, unexpected conversation around self worth and being ready to receive all of the gifts that the universe has in store for you. I know it took a turn and it is a great conversation that left me with goosebumps. To get all the links mentioned in today's episode, head over to thetoycoach.com 221 now there are a few fun ways that you can now interact with this podcast, which include sending us a text message and fan mail. So try those things out wherever you're watching this episode. I've seen some of you sending me hello, which seem like test messages, but they really work. So send along your questions, your name, your comments about the show, or about the episodes. I'd love to read them on an actual episode episode. As always, thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I know your time is valuable and that there are a ton of podcasts out there, so it truly means the world to me that you tune into this one. Until next week. I'll see you later, toy people thanks. For listening to the making it in the toy industry podcast with Ajel Wade. Head over to thetoycoach.com for more information, tips, and advice.